HH: Now you posed the question which I’m sure many anti-interventionists are having, are forming as they yell at the radio. Quote from Page 301: “What gives America the right to render judgment of right and wrong, or good versus rogue? If America takes on the worst offenders in order to extend the core’s rule sets, then why not take on all offenders? Why not just admit we run an empire?� Why not, Dr. Barnett?
TB: Well, because an empire is about enforcing maximal rule sets, what you must do. And what we do is we enforce minimal rule sets. That’s the nature of our political system, you know, what’s not written into law is everything you can do. That’s different from other parts of the world. I remember being almost arrested in the Soviet Union in 1984 for playing Frisbee in a park, and the cop came up to me and said that’s against the law. And I said where is it written, and he said buddy, it’s not written that you can play Frisbee in a park. And that’s how most of the world is governed. But our system has always been based on the notion that if it’s not written down as prohibited, then it’s basically fair game. And that’s the way we’ve ruled the world, if you want to call it that, as we basically enforced minimal rule sets, certain bad things that you must refrain from, so that we can have a relatively stable and free flow of commerce around the planet. You know, the most minimal rule set we’ve pursued throughout our history, and it’s the reason why we had a Navy all these years, is simple freedom of the sea, because in the global economy right up the Second World War, that was basically the only rule you needed. Just keep the fees free, and global commerce can move effectively. But it’s a lot more complex now. I mean, it’s not just sea travel, it’s air travel, it’s networks, it’s all sorts of connectivity that we can barely control, much less understand, and it just behooves us to understand that our role has expanded, and yet we’re not an empire. We don’t seek political control over places. We don’t seek to enforce maximal rules. We seek to keep a level playing field. And others like us in that role. That’s why nobody’s built a force to counter us over the last 17 years, despite all those predictions from realists that it was inevitable.
HH: But it seems to me to make that work, we need to have one certain confidence, and I remember after giving a lecture a few years ago, an exchange student from Asia approached me upset. They said you believe that the West is best. And I looked at him and said yes. And it seems to me, Dr. Barnett, so do you.
TB: I do, but I like to put it in a different way, not so much in terms of we’re better. You know, I think we’re there first. I think we’re there earlier. You know, I talk about America being the source code for globalization. It doesn’t make us right in all instances. It means in terms of that journey towards an integrating, fair sort of environment, you know, bound by rules and bound by a certain culture of tolerance and acceptability of others and their differences, we’re further along in that process, and it creates tremendous responsibility, that wisdom and that understanding. But it doesn’t give us the right to abrogate the rights of others. We have to be patient in many ways, and understand that as other countries make that journey in a similar direction, their change will come at a pace that their culture will handle, which is why…
HH: But we still need to…but do we not have to recognize that what we are exporting, slowly or rapidly, generously or not so generously, coercively when necessary against a bad guy, or not coercively when simply pushing those borders out, is nevertheless a premise that how we organize things is in fact best.
TB: And is organized by rules, okay? And our rule set has come about with many clashes across our history, the most famous one being the Civil War. So I mean…and we constantly adapt our rule sets. Our legal system, our Supreme Court is on a daily basis, almost, declaring certain rules invalid, and asking Congress or the President to come up with better ones. So it’s a constant evaluation process that keeps us strong, not some inherent cultural superiority. It’s that we are an amalgamous, synthetic culture of many rules that have been time tested and put to use over time, and give us a confidence in their efficacy. And again, that’s a responsibility to help others understand that pathway, not to lord it over them, and certainly not to give people the appearance of empire, but to give people a sense that we’re there when they need us, and we’re the force that shows up time and time again.
HH: But what I’m driving at, Dr., is that we have confidence of an efficacy, and in its universality…
TB: Sure.
HH: …because I’ve often heard the argument that the Arab peoples just aren’t cut out for this kind of globalization, and I think that’s profoundly wrong and immoral, and I think you do as well.
TB: Well, because I heard the same thing about other people in the past.
HH: Exactly.
TB: I heard the Japanese couldn’t do it, and they did. In fact, they’re almost better at it than we are in some ways, thanks to our efforts and our willingness to go and fight and stay. And that’s the key part. Any…you know, any kind of empire in the world can go and fight. But we’re the ones who go and fight and stay long enough for the stability and the security and the peace to ensue, so I absolutely disagree with the notion that anybody’s genetically defective. It didn’t take the Russians that long to adjust, and it certainly didn’t take the Chinese that long to become as capitalistic or more capitalistic than we are.
HH: Of course, we don’t always stay. We didn’t stay in Vietnam, and holocaust followed. We did not stay, people don’t want us to stay in Iraq. We did not stay in Lebanon in 1983. And the dangers of not staying, what you call drive-by regime change, are exponentially higher now than even in the holocaust era of South Vietnam and Cambodia, Dr. Barnett. I think that’s your conclusion.
TB: Yes, I’d give a slightly different take on history. I say we went to Europe and we stayed, and now Europe is peaceful and safe. I say we went to the Berlin Wall, and we instituted the policy of containment, and we stayed. And eventually, 3 billion new capitalists joined our system. I’d say we went to Vietnam, and we fought a bloody war, and we retreated into an off-shore balancing role that was profound over the last thirty years, that was a key input to the Asian miracle, because it allowed countries there to basically focus on economic development, and not be constantly hedging against one another militarily. And that’s a collective good we supply the world, which I argue the world has paid for fairly effectively by keeping our currency as the global currency, and in effect, financing a lifestyle, plus that military obligation that we would otherwise not be able to afford.
HH: That’s the essential transaction.